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Talk:The Patriots
Just a quick mention, In MGS:PO it appears that, contrary to what was suggested in MGS3, the Patriots are a distinct organization from the Philosophers. The primary relation, as far as I can tell is the Legacy used to found it and the concept of control, though this has been taken far beyond what the Philosophers could have done. ok who was it that decided to totally screw with this article. last time i checked it was nice and now it's flooded with horrible online grammer, speculation and poor coding. something needs to be done Why does the JD link go to Big Boss' entry? As far as I know, Big Boss' full name is never revealed to be John Doe, though it is said that his name is John. A few different entries (namely the Patriots page) imply that the JD AI was named after Big Boss. I want proof. --Mercuryfox 19:54, 24 July 2008 (UTC) *No proof is needed. JD is connected to the body of Big Boss via nanomachines, to forever preserve The Patriot's 'icon'. Therefore any idiot can tell that JD's name was meant to reference Big Boss, as we already know his first name is John. It may sound stupid, but its quite obvious now that his name was actually John Doe. Someone needs to edit the part where it says "it is not known" if Big Boss accepted the invite to join the Patriots. Thanks to MGS4, we know now that he did. Is there a source for the unabbreviated names for the AIs? --Shotmaker 06:35, 18 June 2008 (UTC) Metal Gear Solid 4. --Fantomas 10:51, 18 June 2008 (UTC) When is JD called John Doe? Shotmaker 06:36, 19 June 2008 (UTC) When EVA first reveals the names of all of them in the church. --Fantomas 12:09, 19 June 2008 (UTC) Patriots Picture Okay this has been bugging me for a while. The image on the article page with the four Patriots says in order from left to right: Big Boss , Dr. Clark , Zero , and Sigint. I think the one on the left is Ocelot ...not Big Boss. Sure there is a dark spot where his right eye is...but if you look closely theres the same with Sigint. I think it's Ocelot because it shows the Patriots when they were still a new group. If thats Big Boss he..then he looks quite old. Besides he didn't go gray until sometime after Peace Walker and before the original Metal Gear. I think its Ocelot's short blonde hair made to look gray by the color tone of the picture. Anyone agree with me? BigBoss1292 03:15, July 13, 2010 (UTC) :If you look on the discussion page for the image, you'll see we've talked about it before. I happen to agree with you, but Shinkawa seemed to depict Big Boss in his aged appearance, in images associated with his time in the Patriots, further muddying the issue. --Bluerock 05:53, July 13, 2010 (UTC) Antagonists? I don't get it.So are they the antagonists of MGS4?-HuangLee :Technically, Ocelot is the anatgonist of MGS4. The Patriots (and, by extension, Major Zero), could be considered the antagonists of the entire Metal Gear series, however. -Chaos91 06:40, 29 December 2008 (UTC) Big Boss and the patriots This article should mention BBs relationship to the organisation. How it started the Les Enfants Terribles Project and how BB left the organisation to create his own version of The Boss's vision. This is mentioned in the Big Boss article as well though. --Drawde83 21:08, 4 March 2009 (UTC) Disregard what was said towards the end of Metal Gear Solid 2? The Colonel A.I. tells Raiden toward the end of MGS 2 that the Patriots, or at least the A.I.s in control, formed as some sort of "consciousness" over many years in the White House. Metal Gear Solid 4 then completely blows this statement out of the water. I was wondering if this conflicting statement should be added to the article. :Yeah, just because it's a lie doesn't mean that explanation was never given so it should fit into the article somewhere. It doesn't disappear, Snake and Otacon do discuss it in MGS4 (something about how they don't believe that story) I don't feel like writing it in personally though. DraculaZETA 08:33, 21 July 2009 (UTC) ::I think it's supposed to be a metaphor guys. Obviously, an AI could not begin forming 200 hundred years ago, as computers weren't even an idea in someone's head back then. I feel it's supposed to represent how the Patriot AIs see themselves as leaders, and their ideas are continuing the great ideas of the greatest Presidents. --Fantomas 21:26, 21 July 2009 (UTC) :::So why did this get removed? I think this should be in the article. However I don't think that it should be in the trivia section. The speculation could also be removed, Let the reader decide what it means. --Drawde83 09:25, 22 July 2009 (UTC) ::::I only removed it because I felt it needed discussing more. I too agree that it being in the trivia section is weird, because it's not really trivia, it's much more important. I also agree about the not explaining it, because I don't feel that it was a lie, or that MGS4 retconned it. --Fantomas 10:45, 22 July 2009 (UTC) :::::I've reinserted it into the article, since no-one was against it being there. I've worded it and placed it where I thought was best. change it if you think it can be improved. (It's the sort of thing thats hard to sort out on a talk page) --Drawde83 21:06, 22 July 2009 (UTC) ::::::I think its better to think of the statement as a metaphor for absolute power becoming something of the government and not the populous. As such JD, the AI, sees itself as just a manifestation of this concept, fully removing the people of America from power and that it is the absolute power that the government now holds. So actually both hold together if you just see JD and the rest of the sons of the patriots' system "as some sort of "consciousness" over many years in the White House" neing giben physical form and a name. The Japanese Concept of Kokutai 国体 There is an excellent article here explaining the nature of The Patriots as bearing resemblance to the Japanese concept of kokutai. In brief, it explains the general ambiguity of the concept in the eyes of Western audiences and how it can be understood a bit more clearly from a Japanese perspective in accordance with their "mytho-political" history of tradition. It would seem to me that the concept is intended as an amalgamation of the Western concepts of the illuminati or "big brother" and their more ethereal Japanese conceptual counterpart. Anyway, I think it'd be worthwhile to include theories on the matter and source this article, possibly among others, as plausible in that regard. It's been a while since I've read the article, but I'll try and get around to re-reading it and possibly authoring a section on the matter.Amor0fati 17:28, March 18, 2010 (UTC) :Interesting article, haven't seen that one before. Will have to read it in full later on. Thanks for posting. --Fantomas 18:38, March 18, 2010 (UTC) AI Does anyone know if each AI has to be accessed using someone's DNA? GW needed Big Boss, are the others the same? If so then whose DNA isn't needed? There are 5 AIs but 6 patriots. Just curious--Soul reaper 09:29, May 31, 2010 (UTC) :No, we don't know. --Fantomas 10:40, May 31, 2010 (UTC) Cipher I have a question. When people refer to Cipher, are they refering to The Patriots as a whole, or are they directly refering to Zero (David Oh)? The word "cipher" in medievil times meant "zero"; hell, the word comes from the Arabic word ṣifr, which meant zero. I would make more sense that they were refering to Zero. - Marcaurelix :According to a person who translated Metal Gear Solid Peace Walker on GameFAQs, Paz apparently refers to Cipher as being her "masters" which implies that Cipher was actually in reference to The Patriots as a whole. Weedle McHairybug 12:20, June 5, 2010 (UTC) ::Fair enough. But I'll wait until the release of the game in the West, and see the official translation. - Marcaurelix Members Were there any other members in the Patriots than Zero, Para-Medic, Sigint, Ocelot, Big Boss and EVA? Inconsistencies why is liquid ocelot listed as a patriot agent? he was trying to take down the patriots.--Lordxehanort 16:47, July 28, 2010 (UTC) Because he is a Patriot agent. He was one of the founding members, but secretly left after he started to disapprove of Zero's actions, such as cloning Big Boss. He was still an active agent, pretending to still work for them while trying to take them down at the same time.WolfMaster 14:16, July 29, 2010 (UTC) :Revolver Ocelot, maybe. But Liquid Ocelot is openly against The Patriots, so he wouldn't actually qualify. Weedle McHairybug 14:19, July 29, 2010 (UTC) Technically he would. They are the same person, just with a different "mind".WolfMaster 14:22, July 29, 2010 (UTC) :Yes, and that "different mind" is openly against The Patriots, which is especially highlighted when Liquid Ocelot resurfaced nearing the end of the Big Shell Incident. Hence, not a Patriots Agent. Weedle McHairybug 14:27, July 29, 2010 (UTC) I'm not trying to start an argument over this, but that different mind was never even real.WolfMaster 14:30, July 29, 2010 (UTC) ::His alternate personality was indeed real, even if it was brought about artificially. --Bluerock 17:49, July 29, 2010 (UTC) Grammar Corrections There is a common mistake on this page and just about every page that mentions The Patriots. The possessive form of Patriots would be Patriots' and not Patriots's, and example of the mistake being The Patriots's plans.WolfMaster 19:30, August 5, 2010 (UTC) Shouldn't Solid snake be labeled an agent? Snake was technically (and unknowingly) in both Metal Gear Solid and Sons of the Patriots as the Fox Die vector, an agent. Infact, he was the KEY agent to their plans in both event. While he did end up causing their downfall, they succeded in their plans of killing the intended targets of the Fox Die vector. Just a thought...- 09:15, September 23, 2012 (UTC) Use of the name "Patriots" after TPP retcon In one of the Truth tapes in TPP Ocelot is talking with Big Boss about the growing up of Cipher (referring to both Zero and the organization) and states that he gave precise instructions to Anderson (at the time already ARPA/DARPA chief, if I recall) about how to program the AIs, to model them under his (Zero's) personality etc. In that tape, Ocelot says that Zero called this network "the Patriots". So, unless I got it completely wrong, after the huge retcon of TPP, it seems that with "The Patriots" was always meant to refer only to the AIs and their network, rather than the organization, which remains referred to as just "Cipher". This thing is really blowing my mind. Like, if that's real, then no one ever got it. Solidus, Johnson, Ames... non of the Patriots agents knew there were no humans behind the proxies giving them orders. To be fair, that'd perfectly match with Zero's intention behind the founding of Cipher: an organizaqtion to reunite and control the world under a single will while acting behind the shadow up to the level of not be known of even exist. Anyone that has listened the tape recently or has a chance to do that can confirm that? Thank you. --The 2nd travel of the Titanic (talk) 11:16, October 25, 2015 (UTC) The timeline is Metal Gear Solid 3 states that the American Philosophers were rebranded the Patriots in 1970 (something which is reinforced in Portable Ops). It's entirely possible that they retained this name until 1974 at the latest before Zero changed the name to Cipher after himself (in order to signify his total control) since during Peace Walker Big Boss seems to be hearing the name for the first time, meaning the name change (if there was one) can be narrowed down to occuring between 1972 (when Big Boss left the group) and 1974. As his health began to decline Zero named the sucessor AI network "The Patriots" in honor of Cipher's former title, both systems in turn being named after The Boss. MOB-4-Life (talk) 12:25, October 25, 2015 (UTC) I listened the tape myself (thank you, Youtube), it was the one called "Report to Big Boss: Zero Has Been Attacked 2". It can be listened here, from 9:22 to 11:56: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1BJTSRkyV4 Since is known that Zero fell into a coma by 1977 (caused by the vocal chord parasite injected by Skull Face), he leaved precise instructions to Anderson (then the "ad interim" leader of Cipher) until the completing of the AIs modeled after Zero's persona and their network, and that the AI project was called "The Patriots". So this also acts as another retcon (that'd may be added to the Retcon page), as this tape says clearily that Cipher was always been the organisation (and later Zero too, probably as a marker of his absolute control over it, like "I am Cipher because now it's just me"), while "The Patriots" refers to the network where all the informations worked by the AIs passes, as well as the project itself for the developing of the AIs. Which, if I'm not mistaking, should mean The Patriots should be moved to Cipher and The Patriots' AIs to The Patriots. Another huuuge retcon from TPP. :p If I am wrong, someone can listen to the tape and correct me? The 2nd travel of the Titanic (talk) 14:32, October 25, 2015 (UTC) Yes you are wrong.. the tape simply states that the AI system is named "The Patriots" it doesn't mention anything about when Cipher came to be known by that name. What we do know is the first mention of the name "Cipher" comes in Peace Walker which is set in 1974 whereas two other games in the series (which take place prior to that) refer to the organisation as The Patriots. There's no retcon since neither Peace Walker or V never state when (or if) the name change occured. They are referred to as The Patriots in five out of seven in game appearances so that's what the page name should stay as. The only time they weren't called that was during the ten years from 1974 - 1984 when they were known as Cipher. What Ocelot says in that tape is very subjective. The fact that he pauses before saying "The Patriots" sounds to me like he's highlighting the irony of the system being named the same thing as their organisation originally was. Due to it being recorded while Big Boss was still in a coma though we are unable to hear his reaction and therefore we can't say for sure. Saying Zero had fallen into a coma by 1977 is also incorrect since he is heard to be fully functional when he visits Big Boss that year. MOB-4-Life (talk) 15:26, October 25, 2015 (UTC) TPP actually retcons the Patriots' origins, stating multiple times that they were founded as "Cipher" (in PW the name "Cipher" was said like if was just an alias used by Zero). Then comes this tape that says that "they" (Cipher, aka Zero and Anderson, Clark is never mentioned in these ones) named the AI network "The Patriots". According to this tape can be assumed (however not confirmed nor denied, like many other things) that the name "Patriots" is (by the many retcons of TPP) now moved to just the AIs ad their network, while the organisation has never been anymore known as such, but only as "Cipher". Now I'm not trying to go anywhere or something, I'm not gonna say that Kojima broke an established canon of a decade, but he kinda did (first The Patriots were founded at the dawn of XX century, then in 1970, then no more because they were never been humans 'cause those are named "Cipher"). This actually is not that much of a "crazy vision" or "fanboyism" or anything, I'm trying to be serious and constructive here (despite almost everything in TPP makes me laugh, but for all the wrong reasons). Is said just here and everything, but I don't think it was meant to be a joke or something, BB was barely reprised from a 9 year coma and I doubt neither him or Ocelot would've been in the mood for jokes lol. This tape could actually have changed completely the use of the name "Patiots", taking it away from the group (Cipher) and moving it to the AIs. It actually makes sense, on its way. Again, this is not confirmed, but the tape seems to hint that. The 2nd travel of the Titanic (talk) 15:47, October 25, 2015 (UTC) Exactly, nothing is confirmed so there's no conflict of information. They were called the Patriots, then Cipher then the AI system was named the Patriots that's all we know. If you can come up with in-game evidence of where it is stated "multiple times that they were founded as Cipher" then I'm happy to concede but we need to stick to the facts. --MOB-4-Life (talk) 15:58, October 25, 2015 (UTC) Ok, maybe I used the wrong words. I remember for sure that in at least one tape (can't remember which one, I'm almost sure it was one of the firsts, those with Ocelot "remembering" Venom about "his" groups on the past) in which Ocelot said that they formed "Cipher". And whenever the organisation is mentioned through the entire game, is always called "Cipher". The page itself has been adapted following the retcons about the foundation long ago ("The Patriots, originally called Cipher"...), and is even listed in Retcon. The name "Patriots" is used one and only one time in the whole game: in that tape, when Ocelot tells BB what happened while he was in coma; and was referring to the AIs and their network, not about the human organisation. This is what made me think if Kojima though to separate Cipher from the Patriots. Of course there's no official comment about this, and most likely there'll never be one (I don't think this has been actually even noticed too much). But still, it's something to be considered though. I mean, he literally said that they (Cipher) named the project (AIs+network) "The Patriots". I don't think it's something that irrelevant though. The 2nd travel of the Titanic (talk) 16:13, October 25, 2015 (UTC) I think I know which tape you're referring to its part of the batch labelled Ocelot Briefing (3) called "Meeting Ocelot, and the formation of Certain Organization" however in the tape Ocelot details the formation of the Patriots and states that it went on to become Cipher (meaning that it was called something else before). In the next tape he also says "Zero created Cipher" as if it were an organization made without Big Boss's involvement. Although this tape doesn't state that the original organization was called The Patriots (since there's no real need) it does in fact prove that Cipher was not the original name. If you want to listen for yourself the tape in question starts here around 16:22 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO9CMSWoWGA --MOB-4-Life (talk) 18:23, October 25, 2015 (UTC)